Wednesday, October 07, 2009

Is your MP signed up to cut their carbon emissions by 10% in 2010??

Campaign group 38 Degrees are working to get more MPs signed up to cut their climate changing emissions by 10% in 2010 (I sent a message to my MP on this, at 38 Degrees request, and then realised she had already signed up - should have searched her website more thoroughly!! Well done Kerry McCarthy!). There are many MPs yet to support the 10:10 campaign though - why not make a few enquiries and then send them a message if needed


  1. And does anyone seriously expect us to believe MPs when they tell us sagely next christmas: "yes, we have cut our emissions by 10%, honest" ???

    Besides which, half this dodgy lot will have been kicked out by end 2010 ...

  2. Why not get each MP to publish their annual carbon account on their website, along with their expenses claims!

  3. Good idea, but difficult to prove unless all of us get 'airtight' carbon accounts like big millipede suggested a year or two ago.

    But will voters vote for personal carbon accounts?

    That's democracy for you. Ask the ancient Athenians.

  4. Glenn,
    Do we know if Bristol City Council have signed up yet, as per the instruction/mandate given by Nick Clegg at the Lib Dems conference earlier in the year? See;

    I can't seem to find them on the list, but maybe its hidden from view (10:10 website doesn't seem to allow a thorough search).

    Mind you, its going to be tricky to meet with plans for new stadia, new supermarkets and new roads appearing almost everyday!



  5. Chris - I've had a look and cant see any sign that Bristol City Council are signed up. Making further enquiries on this...

  6. It would be good to see Councillors baring their carbon too.

    Just how big (or how small) are Charlie Bolton and Jon Rogers' gas'n'lecky bills for example?

    How often do they sneak on a 'plane?

  7. Euonymous - That's the point.

    Carbon = energy = privillige. In the "new world order" of eating potato peelings and drinking our wee, under the proposed Green socialism put forward here and on other blogs, we would all be monitored as to how much we use.

    I can absolutely guarantee that councillors and "party members" would have special allowances, special priviliges. It's human nature. Just like it is now on a monotary basis, resources will be the new currency, and you can bet your bottom dollar with a government led (aka the Green manifesto) green solution, some will be more equal than others, and disagreeing with this corruption will result in you being publicly shamed as a pollutor!

  8. You certainly have a point, anon. This is exactly why we must not abandon environmental issues to the socialists.

    If people keep burying their heads in the sand, as too many have been doing over the last 40 years, and trying to pretend that irresponsible human behaviour isn't dangerously degrading the environment that we depend on, then the dreadful scenario you describe may well come to pass.

    It's up to each of us to be pro-active and play our part in forming a strong civil society - Burke's "little platoons" - that can overcome the overweening State and bureaucracy.

    "Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites, -— in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity, -— in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption, —- in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters."

    Edmund Burke, 1791

  9. That's a really interesting quote from Burke.

    By the way I think Charlie Bolton has published an entry on his blog stating his carbon or eco footprint.

    On socialism - depends what you mean by it. I certainly dont favour imposed, state socialism...however, if by socialism you mean more sharing of wealth and of power, more caring, meeting needs, community...then its a big YES from me!!

  10. Socialism in any form has never been "caring" Glen. Sharing of wealth (by order of a beaurocrat) removes all incentive to work towards anything - wouldn't be many scientists if there wasn't a financial reward for doing so. Power sharing is something which has never been anything to do with socialism, this is to do with liberty and socialism cannot recognise personal liberty in order to operate. Socialism takes the choice of life path and goal away from the individual and puts it in the hands of "community leaders" at a de-centralised level, and MPs in a centralised one. On either path, it robs us of all control of our lives.

    The issue I've always had from the Green party is although around the science and big questions they have a good point, all the policy just looks like a load of uni students got together and said "abolish poverty" and "abolish inequality", and put forward proposals which have been tried and have consistently failed the peoples of the world. I give the Green policy on Pensions reform as one socialist policy which just will not work.

    The myth has always been spread that the left "care" and the right are selfish business owners wanting to exploit people. Therefore many people, being good people, ally themselves to the left. If you really get into the details, you realise that this "caring" left is a system of coersion and threat, which bullies people into accepting and living by the views of the majority, which is not what the right would do.

    Don't forget, the BNP, Hitler, Stalin and Mao were/are all socialists. Some are national socialists, but why on earth the BBC and public can think of some of them of being right-wing is beyond me.

    I abhor the BNP not just for racism, but for policy. If you take the nationalism out of the politics, the BNP are redder than BCFC!!

    I've had my rant!

  11. Yes, its a rant anonymous! Your assertions build upon previous assertions quite nicely - where are the concrete examples and evidence to back what you say??

    Your faith in the advantages of financial reward is staggering give that the world economic system has been brought to its knees by free market excesses built upon it!! Look around the world and see what free markets are doing to people, communities and environments - child labour, slavery, poisoned water, air and soil, deforestation... Read some Charles Dickens and you'll see the parallels with Britain's past.

    Lets take the NHS as one major achievement of the Labour movement - is this not, despite its faults and the need for investment and reform, an example of caring brought about by a socialist approach?

    As for the BNP and Hitler as being, in your view, left-wing...

  12. The world has not been brought to it's knees by fre market excess! Compare the standard of living around the world for free, capitalist countries to those which endure tight government control. All the advances in your own scientific field have come not from beaurocrats, but from individuals seeking advancement for personal gain. Eddison, Einstein, Newton. Not one came from a mandate from a government initiative. Since we adopted capitalism, the human race has expanded in knowledge and culture at an incredibly rapid rate, far faster than socialist, theological, and monarch states.

    Your claim that all the worlds ills are caused by a market (free interaction between individuals) show a deep misunderstanding of economics, please give evidence for this assertion.

    If you are suggesting that people working for governments aren't corrupt, you are an idiot. Slave labour, and all these ills happen just as often when there is an official to be bribed. Look at how incredibly corrupt every single socialist experiment has been. History is absolutely crystal clear - the only system which has ever delivered a better standard of living for the ordinary person is free-market capitalism. The chimney-sweeps in Oliver Twist were helped more by the invention of the gas heater than any legislation. You sometimes have to take a step back and look at things in context.

    Both the BNP and Nazis are national socialist in essence. Both favour tight regulation and government control, both favour protectionism. There are very few differences between Hitler, Nick Griffin and Stalin, who traditionally has been seen as extremely left wing.

    Milton Friedman is very right wing, but I think he is further from Hitler than Stalin was. By modern definition Friedman is one step from Hitler, which clearly isn't true.

    Also, with regard to Charles Dickens - life was much harder before capitalism came along. With capitalism, came full education, scientific advancement, prosperity and social mobility. People flocked to cities to be part of the revolution. Many had it good, many had it bad - no different to any other time in history. In fact under feudalism we had it worse.

    I suppose you believe that the advances made from our feudalistic primitive past, towards the rapid progress of the industrial revolution which finally provided a better standard of living for all was down to something other than capitalism. Maybe it was our beaurocrats and civil servants?

    Personal liberty is the greatest elixar in the universe, it's the whisper of the republic, the greatest ideal ever concieved by Man, and the most frail of all, as there are always sick or misguided individuals who want to remove it from people.

  13. Anonymous - another rambling rant. You wind yourself up the more you write, making asssertions and assumptions to suit yourself. Its a pity you chose to avoid commenting on the concrete example of the NHS that I gave - is this not a major achievement of the Labour Movement that demonstrates caring socialism??

    Please dont direct terms like idiot at me - those with a strong argument dont need to do this do they?? Its my editorial policy to remove posts that use insulting or aggressive language and your comment above is on the borderline in one part.

    Where have you been for the last few yrs? We are still going through the biggest economic crisis since the 30's depression, the problem of climate change is growing ever more serious, billions still go hungry and thirsty...are you seriously saying none of this is to do with 'free' market economics?? The evidence for this has been staring you in the face for some time!!

    Love the idea that scientists like Einstein and Newton did their work for personal gain - priceless!!!

  14. Glen, you took a serious challenge to Green policy, and instead of trying to justify it, totally discredited my argument, asked for evidence whilst providing none of your own. What evidence do you have to back up your arguments on politics? Surely if this is an empirical argument, we would all come to the same conclusion. There is as much evidence in my citing Green policy, and failed socialist experiments such as the USSR, as there is in citing the NHS as a triumph. Both are down to interpretation.

    NHS - Again, a matter of opinion. People in the US have a better standard of care overall, better cancer survival rates etc. There is much more evidence to support a privatised system as providing better service, also as there is much more evidence to suggest privatised education provides better standards overall. People have a choice, not that means anything to some people!

    Clearly this blog is not the place for healthy debate, I will leave you alone now it's clear this is a place for Green-minded people only! - I am, however, sorry if I offended you. I don't think you're an idiot, I was directing that comment really to everyone who puts faith in government-led solutions.

    Being a reformed socialist (SWP and Labour) member myself, I'm trying to break down the misconceptions about socialism and capitalism, and left and right. It's funny that when I started studying economics and politics, but more so economics, how quickly I saw through the problems with socialism.

    Read "Capitalism and Freedom" and you might get a more open mind about capitalism, and although I'm sorry to break this to you, but bad things do happen in the world and governments cannot prevent all of them.

    "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security"

    Benjamin Franklin

  15. Anonymous - I think that most people who read your unfocussed ramblings would find it hard to find any serious challenge to any party's policies. You dont acknowledge that the current world economic recession is down to the free market and the politicians who go along with it, you dont acknowledge the NHS as a major caring achievement of the Labour Movement and have not bothered to respond to the fact that I said billions cant get clean water and food and live in poisoned environments in this global free trading world you advocate - yet you tell me I dont give evidence!!

    You say you dont think I'm an idiot but did use the phrase 'you are an idiot' - and I'm afraid in the same paragraph as your apology about this you cant resist resorting to insult by saying 'this blog is not the place for healthy debate'!! Bear in mind that you've had several lengthy inputs on this blog post, despite the fact that its gone far away from the original topic, and I've replied in the way I have.

  16. "billions cant get clean water and food and live in poisoned environments in this global free trading world you advocate" not proof this is down to the free market any more than "there are lots of ill people in hospital" is proof hospitals make people ill. Anecdotal evidence.

    Oh, well, I can see I'm not winning you over. Or even getting a response acknowledging flaws identified in your arguments.

    Opening one's mind a fraction of an inch sometimes goes a long way, and if the Green movement was more centralised politically, you'd get more support. As it is, hijacking an environmental movement to keep the Red Flag Flying Here is setting humanity back ,as a scientific argument is being abused to resurrect a failed, defeated and discredited political one.

    all the best, and thanks for a cracking online ruck!!

  17. No anonymous, what I refer to is a not anecdotal evidence - there is a wealth of data and examples over an extended period of time and clearly demonstable mechanisms showing why people are suffering hunger, thirst,severe environmental degradation - and the current severe recession - due to free market operation. Are you suggesting that meeting peoples needs and maintaining and enhancing environmental quality is the primary goal of the free market?!?!

    By the way there's also plenty of evidence that hospitals do make people ill - though they are not the only cause of illness, just as the free market is not the only cause of hunger, thirst and environmental degrdation!

    For you to say my mind is not open is a bit rich given your extremely ideologically driven comments. You show me convincing evidence for a view and I'll go with it! Trouble is you are in no way open to this approach to debate - all you want is a 'ruck'.


Genuine, open, reasonable debate is most welcome. Comments that meet this test will always be published.